"Armor"


Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 08:14

I am sorry if this has been discussed before but afaik, it hasn't. Now, forgive me if I have overlooked an element or two in this post.

*NOTE*My points concern SupCom's all-vehicular land combat only, forget about aircraft and battleships for now*NOTE*

There are some good conversations under progress concerning different strategies in SupCom such as ambushing and flanking. However, without any penalties for the victims of your strategy, why even bother? If the armor has the same strength all around the units, it wouldn't help you.
A larger force would win vs. a smaller force, since you attacking your enemy's flanks or his rear doesn't make his units fall any faster. I've checked the public facts, nothing. And I can't seem to recall CT mentioning this in any interview or presentation.
SupCom has the best possibilities of allowing the use of strategy and tactics, but they'll have to help you in some way, more than the element of surprise of course.

Therefore: I suggest that the element of armor strength should be added to the units in this game. In reality, tanks have stronger armor up front, and weaker on the sides and in the rear. That is the reason as to why they are flanked in combat at all. Another reason is probably the time it takes for a tank to turn and react, but this is not WWII, this is SupCom, and your units attack automatically.

Even though the game we are talking about is SupCom, if you're enemies don't fall faster than your own, you will suffer defeat. It will basically mean: Strength in numbers > Tactical ingenuity. I am sure that we don't want it that way.
Also, we don't necessarily have to call this "armor strength", we might as well call it "benefits of flanking your enemy and crushing down on his rear". Just as long as you get some sort of damage benefit when flanking.

Discuss.

/Shapeshift\

Submitted by delt0r on Tue, 2006-08-15 08:40.
delt0r's picture

One of the reason its not done is ppl don't really know the difference between front and back armour.

A A1M1 can take some serious direct hits on the front armour from older needel penetrators, and even mordern HEAT. But the rear armour is easily penetrated with WWII type HEAT weapons.

I'm all for this idea.

Delt0r

The box is not your friend! Get out of the box.


Submitted by Ineffigy on Tue, 2006-08-15 08:59.

The benefit you get from flanking your opponent is that you divide the group. Area effect weapons are more potent when used in flanking manuvers as the victim has less targets per area than the attacker. There are several other intristic benefits to flanking your opponent.

Submitted by ucdeath on Tue, 2006-08-15 10:27.
ucdeath's picture

think of the ML if u come at it from the reat its gunna take some doing to turn him round befor he can start to open up with that big lazer thingy. same gose for smaller units. u attack from behind and u start hurting the enamy befor they can even touch u.


Submitted by pr0x on Tue, 2006-08-15 14:48.

I agree with most of the opinions here, flanking tactics are a great part of any RTS (if included). Infact an entire game can be won by pulling a maneuver like that, with a smaller, more select force crushing a larger one.

This also brings into play another angle of tactics where people will think more to formation of a group of units than just selecting them as a group and clicking willy nilly to attack.

For example: A group of heavily rear armoured units would be placed at the back of a formation, with the opposite placed at the front. This would give rise to an enemy first needing to find surveillance intel to determine which angel would have the greatest weak point, and if a flanking move is even feasible.

I think this is definately a big aspect of gameplay that should be included and opens up many other tactical avenues during play.

Submitted by zpock on Tue, 2006-08-15 14:55.
zpock's picture

What about different types of armor? Like heavy armor, that you need armor piercing weapons to do good damage on? If ChrisT despise simple damage modifiers so much becouse their simple, why not try something a little more detailed simulation of it?

Like the different sides is a good start. That needs units to act smart tough, not turn their back on the enemy every now and then becouse of pathfinding issues and such.

What about some kind of armor thickness and penetration model? Light arms tend to bounce off heavy armor after all.


Submitted by Sam7r7 on Tue, 2006-08-15 17:55.
Sam7r7's picture

------------------------------
THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
-------------------------------

I think within the context of the game all factions should be smart enough to make armor that is equal on all sides. Especially considering the manner in which resources are gained and used and considering how far into the future the game is set. The advantages that the flanks have are natural like other peopl ehave stated.

------------------
DigiPen 2010!!


Submitted by Honarius on Tue, 2006-08-15 22:08.
Honarius's picture

In the context of the RTS genre, I think locational damage has never been done before.

I think it will be too hard to impliment as a whole in a game with over 500 units of all varieties.

Have a look at a fair few of the units, and many look well protected all round their body. I am not dissagreeing with the realistic factor, its just a concept that will be hard to put in at this stage, imagine the bugs it may create.

Apart from that, a nice idea.


---UEF--- WE SOAR ON WINGS OF FIRE ---UEF---


Submitted by Sean Mirrsen on Wed, 2006-08-16 01:57.

With minor adjustments, it can be possible to implement directional damage in TA:Spring. And it's almost impossible to protect a tank-like unit equally on every side, unless it's a sphere shape. You'd need to have equally sloped armor of equal thickness on each side of the tank, and the engine, crew, propulsion, and turret must be in the center - that makes a saucer-type thingy - and additionally increased armor on top and bottom to protect from bombers, artillery, and mines. With the treaded design of tanks, it's impossible to protect the sides as well as the frontplate.

Controller Sean 'Jaguar' Mirrsen
Creator and developer of the Drones race for TA and Spring.
Creator of the Multiworlds universe.

Submitted by delt0r on Thu, 2006-08-17 03:12.
delt0r's picture

The real problem is weight. If you put front plate amour on all sides the thing would weight 100's of tons. Its not going anywhere fast with that mass, which it a tanks biggest advantage, mobility on the battel feild.

delt0r

The box is not your friend! Get out of the box.


Submitted by zpock on Thu, 2006-08-17 03:17.
zpock's picture

I prefer to think that the reason you put more armor on the front is that it's more useful to have that armor on the front then the back. Really you have like 30 tons of armor you can put on the tank for weight reasons, then putting 20 at the front and 10 at the back is more useful then 15 at the front and 15 at the back since you expect to receive more enemy fire to the front of the tank. So even if you could build that 100's tons tank and get it to move reasonably you would use that extra armor on the front anyway.


Submitted by Sean Mirrsen on Thu, 2006-08-17 08:55.

Frontal armor is more effective if the unit is expected to be hit from the front. If the unit's main tactic is expeditious retreat, it has more use for rear armor. And a skirmish tank (in WW2, medium-light tanks like the T34 were essentially skirmish tanks) has a lot more use for equal front/side armor than just heavy front, because it's going to be hit from the sides just as much. It's really all about purpose.

Controller Sean 'Jaguar' Mirrsen
Creator and developer of the Drones race for TA and Spring.
Creator of the Multiworlds universe.

Submitted by delt0r on Fri, 2006-08-18 01:42.
delt0r's picture

modern tank retreat by driving backwards.. Infact its common to have more that one reverse gear and some are almost symetric (go backwards as fast as forwards). So with tanks the idea is to move them around the battle field to only expose the front of the tank.

delt0r

The box is not your friend! Get out of the box.


Submitted by vissroid on Fri, 2006-08-18 02:23.
vissroid's picture

nicely said. I was thinkin the same thing Smiling

__..)/..____..)/..__
¯¯””/(”¯¯¯””/(”¯¯¯
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... Even if you win...
You're still retarded...

Prints


Submitted by Lycanthrope on Fri, 2006-08-18 05:58.
Lycanthrope's picture

Directional Damage to the Masses!

\Shapeshift/


Submitted by Insanity-O_o on Wed, 2006-08-30 08:03.
Insanity-O_o's picture

One problem with this, is that now you need to have a way to make your units go backwards w/o turning around. Probably not a major problem, but something that needs to be taken into account.

*************
Don't worry, the pink elephants are just for show....The pink monkeylords on the other hand, are fully operational.


Submitted by SuperiorX on Tue, 2006-08-15 20:25.
SuperiorX's picture

dont forget that if you flank an opponent you get the first Shot free of charge while they are turing to face you.

SuperiorX Times SuperiorX = SuperiorExessX. SuperiorX Times SuperiorX Times SuperiorX = SuperiorTriExessXXX


Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.