I know its beta, but I'm curious what you guys think the best sides are in order. I know its all opinion but it gives a good idea of the state of balance right now. Thanks.
Define "best".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Original Gaymer Dag
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It really depends on map size, number of players, skill level, and play style. Each side is really quite well balanced right now, although different map sizes and play styles will favor different factions. For example, I would favor cybran for a rush-type 1v1 on a small, open map. However, on a map like finns revenge (small 1v1, with water) aeon might have the upper hand with tech 1 hover tanks and strong navy. For larger team games, people may choose uef for the devastating tech 3 gunship, however aeon and cybran are also very competitive on large maps if played well.
The game is actually well balanced with no "best" side, although some units may still need adjustments.
Yeah, balance is better than it used to be.
I still think UEF suffers in T1, mostly because the Striker is the worst of the T1 heavy combat units, and that tends to drag UEF down overall (a weak early game will tend to result in a weak endgame, even though UEF has the best T3 unit in the game, it's often not going to help you if you don't make it that far).
UEF reminds me a lot of CORE. Crappy early game, omgwtfbbq endgame.
I don't really like UEF experimentals, though. The Fatboy is very powerful at long range but will fall to swarms of units unless you give him a significant escort. The Mayor is a game-ender but costs so much and build so slow that you could have probably built some other game ending rig three times over by the time it's done. The Atlantis is cool, but obviously only on a water map, and only if you need to get sea control back and only if you have air supremecy to ward off torpedo bombers.
UEF's real strength IMO is in the T3 gunship (of course) and their T3 siege bot, which is quite good. (The UEF siege bot is a little odd in that it shoots direct, rapid fire energy bolts. This seems a little out of place for UEF which otherwise favors slow firing lobbing shots.)
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Aeon I can't decide. Their T1 tanks have awesome range but lousy hit points, which means they're either mowing down the opponet or getting mowed down, depending on a few circumstances.
Aeon seem kinda middle of the road to me. They neither excel nor suck at any particular tech level (whereas UEF sucks at T1 and excells in T3 and Cybran is the other way around).
I think Aeon probably is the team that most rewards smart gameplay and most punishes stupid gameplay. There's only so much you can do right or wrong with a UEF or Cybran T1 army, but there's a lot you can do right or wrong with an Aeon T1 army.
Aeon Experimentals also seem to follow this philosophy. The Collousus can easily beat a Monkeylord, but it's slower, doesn't cloak and doesn't have any anti-air capability, so once again, you can either go smart and win big or go foolish and waste a whole lot of resources with it.
Cybran I still think is the best overall. The Mantis is still a great T1 unit, though not so crazy overpowered like it used to be. Cybran T2 and T3 units seem kinda "meh" to me, but I find they're good enough that the typical Cybran plan seems to be to gain supremecy in T1, then hold it in T2 and T3 and if you still haven't overrun your opponet, you pull out possibly the best Experimental in the game: Monkeylord.
True, it's not the "best" experimental in terms of head to head fights with other experimentals, but in terms of effectiveness vs cost, I believe it's the best. The integrated radar cloak really helps it and it's use is very straightforward. And while UEF needs a super-awesome economy to build a Mayor in any worthwhile timeframe, you don't really need a crazy economy to start working on a Monkeylord.
The main Cybran weakness in my mind is actually their shields. Not so much because they're a little weaker and more expensive than other teams, but because upgrading them is really annoying. They should just have like a slider or something to set the level I want...
I agree with these comments, however, I would add these.
- Cybran does better with rushing on small maps, still mainly due to the Mantis bot. Although, I think that a clever player could transport an engineer to the front on any size map and attempt to make the rushing strategy work.
- UEF does better with large maps due to the T3 gunships. I think that these work on any size map, it's just that on smaller ones the player has to slow down their production a bit to take time to defend themselves against the things that come at him before T3.
- Aeon does well on water maps, though I have not seen them to have a distinct advantage over the other two sides. Other people say that it is true with the possible exception of the UEF Battleship. The Cybran destroyer is also noteworthy since it can walk on land. For myself, it's hard to judge since most of the people that I have played against on water maps do not seem to know how to play the navy effectively, so there isn't much basis to compare the factions per se.
My ratings of the relative power of the sides in order right now:
1. UEF - Both UEF and Aeon have the ability to stave off an early rush as long as the player prepares for it. Passed that point, I think that the T3 gunship is better than any other unit in the game, including experimentals, support commanders, etc. It is fast, tough, can get to any point on the map quickly and it deals out extreme firepower. Anytime I see a UEF player in the game, I know that I need to try to prepare for a gunship onslaught.
2. Cybran - The Mantis bot is a good early unit since it packs a punch, is pretty fast and it can assist in building/repairing. Anytime I see a Cybran player in the game I build extra defenses for the rush, because it often happens. Later in the game, Cybran get the Spiderbot which is fast for an experimental, is pretty brutal up close and it has stealth against radar. It's also fast and relatively cheap to build. There is also the upgradeable commander which can be stealthed and gets a microwave gun of his own. Both the Scathis (think TA Buzzsaw) and the Soul Ripper (gunship from hell) are also good units in the right situations.
3. Aeon - I place them last because their hallmark unit seems to be the Galactic Collosus. This unit is very powerful against ground based targets up close and can easily kill multiple Spiderbots, it also has about 4x the hit points of a Spiderbot. However, it is extremely slow, has zero air defense and can been seen a mile away on radar. So, it is vulnerable to artillery and air power. The Aeon Czar is useless as discussed in other threads. The Tempest experimental battleship is fairly good on water maps, though it is questionable whether a standard battleship works just as well in practice. The resources needed for one Tempest could pay for several normal battleships and the Tempest probably packs less aggregate punch. The Aeon artillery is more accurate than the other two sides, though I don't see this as a huge advantage. If someone is shelling you, you build shields. Since the recharge time of a shield is slightly faster than that of artillery, higher accuracy doesn't make much difference. One solution is to make more artillery than the enemy has shields, but then the accuracy doesn't seem to be as much of a factor. When I play against an Aeon player, there is nothing special that I prepare for.
So if you are looking for the uber side, I would go with UEF right now. Somewhere between 10 and 20 gunships can kill a commander in just a few seconds against most opponents. Shield defenses are useless since they get dropped very quickly. AA batteries can easily be nullified with a screen of scouts to divert their attention.
I've been playing UEF and using the gunships against people online just to drive the point home. Last night this got me a comment of "Amateur" and a couple others that were worse from the other players, but I'd like to see this taken care of as soon as possible.
As things stand, id put UEF as first, with Aeon a close second and Cybran a distant third. Main reason: Everybody talks about the mantis, that its the best t1 tank.. well theyre right. However, its hardly as good as it used to be, with the increased mass cost and build time, and once you get past that, I can hardly think of a single non experimental unit that I could call a practical advantage. Our t2 PD.. that is a practical advantage, but not for a really offensive Cybran player. As things stand, playing Cybran hinges on using the Mantis to win at tech1, and then either finishing the job or using increased resources to tech faster and outproduce your opponent. As an exclusively Cybran player, I cant say too much about the balance of the other factions when it comes to Aeon vs UEF. Obviously, the t3 gunship is a big balance issue that everybody knows about- but the Pillar and Titan are also the best tech2/3 tanks. The UEF's shielding is moderate, artillery is moderate. The navy is to my knowledge on a par with Aeons- that is, above Cybrans. To sum up the UEF, they have moderate in most things, with good scores in direct attack units except for at tech1 and aerial units with the tech3 gunship. The important thing is that UEF have no real weaknesses. With the Cybran, tech up against them and they falter- with the Aeon, their experimentals arent that good and their direct combat units typically falter a bit in comparison to the UEF equivalent. There is no good tactic against the UEF, as such.
UEF Aeon Cybran
"Omg invisible spider?! HAX!" "WTF Wheres the spider! OMG! cheater!"
You keep trying to discount the T1 balance, but that's the most important phase of the game.
If you lose T1, it doesn't matter how good your T3 units are.
This is why every "Silver Replay" at Gamereplays is Cybran vs Cybran or UEF vs UEF. If you dig into it, you'll find that Cybran vs UEF games rate lower because there's not a lot of excitement to be had in a game where the Mantis rush crushes the UEF before they reach T3.
I see no evidence, either in my own gameplay or on other people's GameReplays of this supposed UEF overpower. Yes, T3 gunships are overpowered but that ends up not mattering in most games.
In regards to Cybran, I played a game last night where a Cybran player built about 10 T3 bombers. I thought, no problem, I'll intercept with my 10 T3 air superiority fighters (either Aeon or UEF, don't recall). Well, the interceptors got there in time, and the cybran bombers proceeded to shoot every one of my interceptors down. Now, I was thinking that it should have been the other way around, but the bombers were pretty effective nonetheless. Further, they went on to bomb my teamate's commander into the dirt in short order. So, there's a good Cybran T3 unit. It was reminiscent of the UEF gunships, speaking of which...
I don't see how you can say that T3 gunships don't matter in most games. I guess it depends on who you are playing and the circumstances. If the game is over by T2, ok, I agree. However, a lot of games do end up at T3 before they are over, and that means that the gunships are a huge factor.
Im pretty sure that every silver replay to be found at Gamereplays is gonna be on a small map between high ranked players. That isnt really balance, thats just rushing. I discount the tech1 balance because there are other techs to worry about where the balance discrepancies are more obvious. In your own gameplay or on GameReplays.. to be honest, I think thats just another situation similar to the above- where games are pretty much decided at tech1 on small maps. Not really a great test of tech3 balance. Anyway, if you really want to prove me wrong, go sandbox it. 10 rhinos against 10 pillars.. 10 titans against 10 loyalists. I guarantee you the pillars/titans will win.
On small maps / maps without too many obstacles or choke points. 1. Cybran 2. Probably Aeon... 3. UEF
The bigger the map gets, the more and more T1 becomes worthless outside of things like navy and some air units. So balance switches.
1. UEF 2. Aeon 3. Cybran
people underestimate sub-commanders late game. they are a great complement to t3 bots. Cybran with artilary and a few subcoms= enough to give any massed t3 uef army a run for the money.
True, but the price of building up a sizable force of subcommanders, not to mention upgrading them makes the tactic not the most viable one.
While we're on the topic.. what exactly do the Switchback Engineering Suite and Focus Covertor *do*?
Focus Converter makes the damage of the SCUs weapon to 1000. (it is actually a little less, but closer 1000 than 900) Switchback Engineering Suite doubles the build capacity of a Support Commander.
i'd say the cybrans are great in all techs because once i had an army of 100 ground units, 20 air units and around 15 ships. The enemy (aeon) had about the best defences for air and great for ground so this is what i did. i got the ships to attack all around it.once i got them confused i bombed the ground defences and then moved my ground guys in and destroyed everything. Until a colossus came. at my base i had 2 spiderbots defending just in case of this so i sent my leftover air (around 5 left to attack it) i was slowly destroying it but it would take forever so i got my spiderbots to attack it while i build more air. at the enemy base...i was still winning but then a another colossus came out. it ripped everything apart and just before i could finish their base off, it destoyed all my ships and ground units. 15 bombers were done and 5 fighters so i got them and went right past the colossuses and destroyed their last building and forgot it was assasination. right away i got all my air to hunt dow the enemies commander.the colosus was at my base so i got my commander out of there and got him to the edge of the place. my commander happened to find the enemy commander and it was 1vs1. my commander was losing so i got it to move while it attacked. then my gunship that was almost their was somehow shot down and it smashed into the enmey commander and destroyed it. I FINALLY won....btw it was last tech age for the enemy and i and the battle was around 6 hours long so thats why the enemy had two colossuses.
stay on topic guys, just rate them and give a reason why.
I love the aeon and will never play another race as seriously. The kicker for me is the tech 3 assault bots. They help build things so i no longer waste resources on extra builders and everytime the go around to help an engineer they also give the engineer defense. Thats invaluable especially while creating a tech 4 unit or artillery or another large unit. Also they have much further ranged artiller and stronger shields so I really love them.
Uef i would rate second, they just have tough units that I don't like to have to deal with in numbers.
Cybran I guess are the worse because they dont seem to have that much thats over the top better but they have the most fun tech 4 i think. ------------------ DigiPen 2010!!
I have to agree that on small maps the Cybran have a big advantage in the early game. Even with the changes the Cybran can still pump out a formidable t1 army that if you arent prepared for they will hand you your @ss on a silver platter. Cybran t2, and t3 aren't anything special other than they can use stealth. Omni radars can negate that. The Cybran navy is awfull imo. Only unit that is better than other navys is prolly the destroyer, but land units can do a better job.
So for small waterless land maps 1 Cybran 2 UEF 3 Aeon
On big maps especially with water the advantage goes to the UEF. With the Aeon running a very close 2nd. Both have good navys. The UEF has the endgame t3, and t4 arty + t3 Gunships. Aeon have Amphibious assault tanks, and decent t2/t3. Cybran arty is all but useless in a long game. It couldn't hit its target if a big neon sign was pointing at it making you rely on tac missiles for long range bombardment. While they have good experimentals, they will lose to UEF/Aeon t2, and t3 units, and defences.
So for big maps with water. 1 UEF 2 Aeon (almost equal to UEF) 3 Cybran
